Episode 4: A Sense of Urgency in the 4th Age of Strategic Deterrence

In this episode of the EFCOG Exchange Podcast, we explore how EFCOG and its member companies can support a renewed sense of urgency as the National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) advances stockpile modernization in the 4th age of strategic deterrence.

EFCOG Board Member and Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) Deputy Laboratory Director for Operations Mark Davis joins host Mike Nartker, VP of Communications at Longenecker & Associates: a Geosyntec company, to discuss the evolving NNSA mission, strategies underway at LANL, and the critical role EFCOG can play in enabling enterprise-wide collaboration. Mark also shares insights on today’s geopolitical landscape and why time is the most valuable asset in this new era of deterrence.

Stay tuned for future episodes of the EFCOG Exchange Podcast, where we continue to spotlight innovation, collaboration, and success across the DOE enterprise.

Transcript

Welcome and introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Hello and welcome back to the FCOG Exchange Podcast, your source for fresh conversations on how the Energy Facility Contractors Group and its member companies are supporting the critical missions of the U.S. Department of Energy. I'm Mike Darker, Vice President of Communications for Longenecker and Associates at Geosyntech Company, and we're proud to be one of the more than 135 members of FCOG. Today I'm excited to welcome FCOG board member Mark Davis. Mark is the deputy lab director for operations at Los Alamos National Laboratory, and in this role, he manages core mission support functions such as business, human resources, infrastructure, safety, security, logistics, and operational readiness for the lab. Amid a tense geopolitical climate around the world, nuclear security experts are increasingly describing today as a quote, fourth age of nuclear deterrence. And that's why it's so fitting today's episode features someone from Los Alamos, the birthplace of the atomic weapon and the start of nuclear deterrence. Today, Los Alamos plays a central role in the National Nuclear Security Administration's missions from stockpile stewardship to plutonium operations and broader national security science. The laboratory is currently undergoing a significant period of growth as the U.S. works to modernize this nuclear deterrent for national security. Mart, thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Mike, thank you very much for having me. And it's uh great to have this discussion. And I think it's very timely in the present geopolitical situation we find ourselves in. Um, the role of our national labs and specifically LANL, you know, is now more important than ever. And I think, you know, FCOG has a significant role to play in moving us forward. So I look forward to the discussion.

Mark Davis discusses how Los Alamos supports DOE and NNSA missions and outlines his role as Deputy Laboratory Director

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Right. And that's a great way to start us off. Because I was going to ask, could you first start by describing how Los Alamos supports DOE and NNSA's broader missions, and then how your role supports Los Alamos?

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Certainly. That's a that's a great way to start. So I would say, you know, Los Alamos is an incredibly complex organization and it's grown significantly over the past several years. So today we have over 18,000 personnel supporting the mission. Our budget is approaching$6 billion a year, and our procurements alone are about$2 billion. There'll be about$2 billion this year. And Los Alamos is unique in that we are a design agency, a production agency, and a scientific laboratory all rolled into one. So the missions that we do are vital, critical to national security, and cannot fail. And so it's an incredibly complex mission. And none of the work that happens here could happen without the operational foundation that supports it. And I'm very fortunate to have an incredible team supporting me. Um, in my role as Deputy Laboratory Director for Operations, I essentially fill the role as the COO for the lab. And my focus is really making sure that we enable all of those missions by making sure everything we need is present infrastructure, operations, um HR, safety, security, capital projects, finance. Um, all those things have to come together to support the mission. And a big part of what I do is is helping to develop and support the strong safety and security culture that we need to enable us to do that mission. So it's a big job. I have a great team, we love what we do, and it's really important.

The role of EFCOG in strengthening communication, collaboration, and knowledge-sharing across the complex, and its ability to break down silos and enable strategic, forward-looking thinking

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Spinning, right? Because the whole purpose of FCOG, as uh the organization states on its website, is to maximize DOE and in the same mission success. And so I'm wondering, you know, as you're a member of the FCOG board of directors, what motivated you to get involved with Epcog?

SPEAKER_00 4:09

So, you know, you you started off by talking about the present geopolitical situation. And so if we as an enterprise are going to excel, given the current situation, you know, it's very complex. And we need to effectively communicate, collaborate, share ideas, and share lessons learned. And I think FCOG is the appropriate body to do that. And you know, the challenge is that some of us get so wrapped up in the day-to-day, you know, part of the job, you know, and the the tactical operations that we can't, you know, get the strategic vision. And I think that's where FCOG can come in. You mentioned that there are more than 135 member companies that support FCOG and, you know, at a very high level, very senior leaders. And so the ability that we have as an organization to come together and look strategically and look to the future, you know, is is very beneficial. And, you know, the days of siloed organizations are past us. If we're going to succeed, we all have to work together. We all have to collaborate and communicate. And FCOG is the ideal body in which to do that, to facilitate that communication, collaboration, and sharing of lessons learned.

Discussion of the four ages of strategic deterrence, the shift from stockpile stewardship to modernization, and why time is the most critical asset in today’s environment

SPEAKER_01 5:31

You know, over the past few years, we're seeing increased discussion about the importance of modernizing the nuclear stockpile. In fact, the the current Secretary of Energy, Chris Wright, um, listed that in his top objectives when he came into DOE about a year or so now. And while NMSA has been focused on the, you know, we hear the term stockpile stewardship for many years, it now seems the focus of shifting more and more to a culture of production. Um, the the drive to make new plutonium pits, for example, at Los Alamos and at other sites. And so that seems to have shifted the culture from a stewardship mentality to one more of urgency across the NNSA complex. And I'm wondering how you're seeing that play out at Los Alamos.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Yeah, so you know, in in warfare, they talked about the generations of warfare that we have and how they've changed over time and how it's significantly changed the way warfare is carried out. So I think it's the same in the realm of strategic deterrence. And we look at that as there really being four ages. The first age was the Manhattan Project. Um, very successful at that. And then the second age, that led to the second age, which was the Cold War. You know, we had one adversary, the Soviet Union. They knew a lot about us, we knew a lot about them. Um, we had we had formal lines of communication open to minimize the chance of there there being um, you know, not understanding intentions. They knew about our stockpile, we knew about theirs. And then I would say that kind of ended, you know, about the time the Berlin Wall came down, and then when we stopped doing nuclear testing in 1992, and that led into the third age, which is the post-Cold War period. And so a couple of key things to point out, really specifically for Los Alamos, but for the enterprise in general. Um, you know, in the post-Cold War era, Rocky Flats closed down. And previously, Rocky Flats was our provider of plutonium pits for nuclear weapons. And also the mound facility in Ohio, which produced the uh detonators for the weapons, that also closed down. And so both of those missions transitioned to Los Alamos. So we entered the third stage, the post-Cold War era, stopped nuclear testing. And so, like you said, that was really science-based stockpile stewardship. We were just maintaining the stockpile. And so during that period, there was only one new nuclear weapon produced, and that's the B-6111. But the focus was on life extension programs for the nuclear weapons, maintaining the stockpile. And uh, you know, so now, and so that was stockpile stewardship, maintaining the stockpile. Now we've transitioned to the fourth age, which I characterize as stockpile modernization. And so before I describe that in detail, I just wanted to talk about the current geopolitical situation. So when I talk about this, I tell people this is the most challenging time since the Cold War for us. And people kind of sometimes roll their eyes at that and say, How can how you can say that? But I think it's justifiable. And when the new NNSA administrator came here for a visit, um, he said that we find ourselves in the most dangerous times regarding deterrence since 1949 when the Soviets tested a nuclear weapon. And I think he's absolutely right. So, you know, in the third age, um, you know, we all we've all heard about the peace dividend. You know, we kind of slowed things down, we took all of those things. Um, but that's over with now. And so going into the fourth age, I think the most significant thing, you know, the most precious commodity is time. We just don't have time anymore. We find ourselves in an era where there are two near peers in the nuclear arena, Russia and China. And we also find ourselves without any treaties for the first time in a very long time to kind of control the strategic weapons environment. Um, but in addition to that, we also see increased collaboration between Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea. So that's a pretty challenging and dynamic geopolitical situation. And so at the same time, like I said, stockpile modernization, we're trying to modernize all three legs of the nuclear triad simultaneously. So for intercontinental ballistic missiles, we're producing the Sentinel to replace the Minuteman. On the submarine sides, the submarine launch ballistic missiles, we're producing a new class of ballistic missile submarines, the Columbia class, which will replace the Ohio class. And then for strategic bombers, we're producing the B-21 bomber. So all three legs are being modernized simultaneously. And like I said, the most precious commodity is time. We just don't have time anymore. We can't kick the can down the road any longer. So um, it's really important that we get this right. I would say the next five to 10 years is as important as it's ever been in the arena of strategic deterrence. And, you know, we have to, we have to become more efficient and effective at how we do our work to be successful.

Culture change at LANL to support a heightened sense of urgency, while maintaining an unwavering commitment to safety, security, and mission excellence

SPEAKER_01 11:17

So at Los Alamos, then, how how is the culture changing or what kind of culture change may be needed to move into this new age and to embrace that sense of urgency that you so eloquently described?

SPEAKER_00 11:31

So DOE and NNSA leadership, you know, we talked about the most important commodity as time. And so they talk about needing a culture of urgency. And so I think it's important that we understand what that means. And every time I talk to our workforce here, I kind of emphasize that because people can take that and look at that and say, oh, it means you want us to focus on production and not safety or security. And I would say nothing could be further from the truth. You know, the best way we can have a culture of urgency is to make sure that we do the appropriate planning and that when we're ready to execute a job, we have everything we need to do so efficiently and effectively. Now that means we have the people that we need, the plant is in the environment that can support that work, and all of the paperwork that we need to do that is ready to go. So that when we commence the work, we can get through it without issue. And then when we actually do the work, having first-time quality. You know, one of the things I like to say is that if we don't have time to do it right, then we certainly don't have time to do it wrong. So security and safety are now more important than ever because we have to get through these things and do them correctly. So we have to have this culture of urgency, you know, which places an even greater emphasis on the team. I like to say, hey, we have to put the team first and the position second. You know, we talked about those siloed organizations. We just can't afford that anymore. We have to all work together towards a common goal. And, you know, one thing that we emphasize is support organizations can't singularly be focused on compliance. Compliance is important, but we have to enable the mission. Um, you know, people say, hey, the safest day you have is the day you don't do any work, right? But that's not where we need to be. We need to be compliant, but we also need to execute the mission. And so it's really important to do that. And like I say, the best thing we can do is to collaborate, to team, to understand, and to share lessons learned. And so I think FCOD has a very significant role in that.

How EFCOG can serve as a bridge for DOE headquarters, labs, plants, and sites to align efforts and drive progress toward shared mission goals

SPEAKER_01 13:53

It's interesting you mentioned that because I mean those those things you discuss, right, they are not limited to Los Alamos, right? Every site throughout the end of the state complex, the other labs like Lawrence Livermore, the production sites like Pantex or Y12, they all need that as well to to meet the the main goal, right, of modernization and and addressing modernization with the sense of urgency that the world climate needs. And I would even say it's not even limited to NNSA. When you look at DOE's broader objectives in areas like energy dominance or environmental remediation, you still need um many of those same things you discussed for achieving at Los Alamos. And so, from your perspective on FCOG, whose members are involved across the breadth of DOE operations from NNSA sites to environmental management sites to office of science labs, how can FCOG, through its members and through, for example, FCOG's working groups, help disseminate that culture of urgency across DOE to build that up everywhere?

SPEAKER_00 14:59

In my mind, FCOG is the ideal organization to do that. And there are a couple key things. Uh like I said, you know, at the at the individual um lab, plant, or site level, you know, we can't operate in SIVOS. We have to operate as one, you know, organization. But even you know, throughout the enterprise, um, between the labs, plants, and sites, back to headquarters, to our federal oversight here in the field offices, we all have to team together and have the common goal in mind. So um, I love to tell stories, and uh, it's surprising I haven't told one yet, but I'll tell one now, you know. And so when I go to the workforce, I often refer back to the Apollo era, you know, at NASA. And what I say is, you know, folklore has it that during that period, you could ask anyone at NASA from the COO, the CEO, a maintenance person, a custodian, what their job was. And they all would have the same answer, and that's to place a man on the MOOC. And so I think that's equally important where we are now. And so when um when NA10, when Dave Beck visited us, he talked about, you know, every person in the organization should understand their role in strategic deterrence. And so I think, you know, that same message is equally important as it was back at NASA, you know, that it is today with strategic deterrence. And so the role that FCOC can play is to be that bridge, both to headquarters and between the labs, plants, and sites, you know, to look at things at the strategic level, to get above the frame, you know, to see the forest through the trees and to pick out those lessons learned, um, you know, to have that strategic discussion and say, how can we all move forward together? Because that's what we have to do now. Like I said, the most precious commodity is time. And so we don't have time for each of us to figure it out on our own. We need to move forward together. And I think FC can be the facilitator for that.

Key challenges facing LANL and the broader complex, and how EFCOG enables sharing of lessons learned and best practices; the importance of workforce alignment and mission understanding

SPEAKER_01 17:09

You know, it's interesting. You are not the first leader in the DOE complex. I've heard, I would say, in the past few months reference that famous anecdote. You know, I've heard it, you know, the NASA janitor story. I've I've heard it from uh national lab directors, I've heard it in the environmental management program. And I think the increasing use of that story to me sends a signal of that that one, the leaders across DOE understand the importance of everyone at a particular site or project or lab or initiative knowing how they fit to the broader goal, right? You're not just here to um, you know, manage a contract or prepare a press release, like me and my communications brethren throughout the sites, right? But we're here, those are a means to an end, and the end is, you know, like in the NASA example, to put a man on the moon. The end is to ensure national security by modernizing our deterrent to meet the demands of today. Um, I think it's I think it's telling that that's becoming a very people are pushing that story so that everyone, no matter your your position, your job, uh how much time you may have been in the DUE world, knows that you are here for a broader purpose, uh, which I think is which I think has positive implications. I think people like knowing they're part of a bigger, of a bigger ambition, of a bigger goal, especially one so beneficial to our country. Um let me ask you this though, as you've been moving to that culture of urgency, you know, we keep coming back to it at Los Alamos, what have been some of the biggest challenges to that? Biggest challenges to work at key facilities like PF4, for example.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

So, you know, the way the analogy that I use to describe what's going on specifically in PF4 is we're rebuilding an airplane while we're flying it, and we have a plane full of passengers. And we've done all the easy stuff, you know, replaced the seat covers, replaced the carpet. Now we're overhauling the engines. And so that's the challenge that we're facing. And, you know, with the backdrop of the geopolitical situation that we talked about, you know, we have to have that sense of urgency. And so the key point there is everybody understanding their role, you know, and and like I said, when I talk to the workforce, I tell them, you know, I tell the story of NASA, and I'm I'm like, hey, you know, the custodians play a key role. If our restrooms aren't clean, if they aren't functioning, we're not going to be very productive. So everybody needs to understand that role and be able to execute and feel good about, you know, their role in that project because nobody is more important than the next person. You know, we all need to be rowing together. And that's, you know, that's where I think FCOG can play a really key role. Um, you know, in sharing those lessons learned. You know, we're bringing on a lot of new people. You know, how do you hire onboard them, get them trained and up to speed as quickly as possible? And, you know, all of the labs, plants, and sites experience that. So FCOG can be the conduit to pass those lessons learned down so we all can get more efficient and effective together. And also, you know, with this culture of urgency, like I said, it's really important to talk to the workforce and make sure they understand what that means. You know, like I said, it doesn't mean cutting corners or violating safety or security. It just means first-time quality, you know, being ready to go and and not giving up those vital minutes. Um so, you know, in the past, I described Lannell as a 410 organization. Meaning we work four days a week, 10 hours a day with a small contingent that works 24-7. And so oftentimes, you know, a Thursday morning problem became a Monday solution. And as an enterprise, we can't afford to give that time up any longer, you know, and so that's that's the sense of urgency we have to have, you know, and supporting organizations, um, they have a role to play. But when I'm in discussions, I'm like, I tell them it's certainly appropriate for you to say no when that's the answer. But then you can't walk out of the room. You have to stay and be involved in getting us to yes. And that's a different perspective for some people. And it's the same for the oversight, you know. And I would say we have a great team here at Los Alamos, we have a very close relationship. Relationship with our field office, with our oversight. And they're not just part of identifying issues, but helping us to get to solutions. So that's the key. We all have to work together as one team, you know, as an enterprise. And like I said, I think F COG is can be the conduit to getting us to the place where we need to be.

Overview of the PF-4 facility and its transformation into a pit production facility

SPEAKER_01 22:22

And now I I would be remiss without saying, you know, some of our listeners may not be as familiar with the NNSA complex as as you certainly are, Mark. What is PF4 for those who may not who may not um know know that term? What is that?

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Oh, great. Thanks very much for that. So so PF4 is our pit production facility. And so that's where we produce plutonium pits for the nuclear weapons enterprise. And um so just for a little bit of context, PF4 was not built to do that. They were, it was built as a research and development facility. So we've had to, and that's why I talked about the analogy of flying the plane while we're rebuilding that. We're now transforming that into a production facility. And presently, PF4 is the only pit production facility in the United States. Um, they're working at Savannah River now on a second production facility, but that's you know, some years up. So right now, um, we're the only game in town. The enterprise certainly needs new plutonium pits to support strategic deterrence and to support the stockpile modernization. And so that's why I say, you know, we have a mission that's vital, critical to national security, can't fail. And we're the only ones that do it press.

The need to evolve requirements and operational models, and EFCOG’s role in supporting enterprise-level efforts

SPEAKER_01 23:45

One of the things, both I would say the broader DOE leadership and certainly within NSA leadership we're seeing to help drive this culture of urgency is looking is taking a good look at uh regulations, requirements, ensuring that they are appropriate for the mission today and the mission ahead, without you know, reducing safety or reducing quality, right? But kind of a streamlined approach to regulation and requirements. Uh you mentioned, for example, oversight uh with your federal partners at Los Alamos. And so where do you see the biggest opportunities for FCOG and its member companies to help DUE think differently about requirements and operational models?

The future of digital tools and AI: enabling workforce efficiency, improving objectivity, and addressing blind spots in decision-making

SPEAKER_00 24:29

I think that we can play, we as FCOG can play a very significant role. So this is not the first time the enterprise has tried to be more efficient and effective. Um, you know, in the past we've tried this several times. And I think what has prevented us from being completely successful is that, you know, everybody wants to be involved in the process. And the more people you have involved, the slower you go. You know, so we need to limit the number of people so that we can move expeditiously through the process and get to an answer. And so I think that's what we're trying to do now. And that's uncomfortable for a lot of people, um, because change can be uncomfortable, you know, and especially when you don't have all of that information. But like I said, you know, and I always like to say there's some number of people above which you can't accomplish anything because you can never come to a consensus. So, you know, to move expeditiously, um, you know, a small group focused, working towards a solution can get us there. And then once you have a solution, then you need to communicate that very effectively. So I think FCOG is helping, you know, working with the enterprise to identify that key group of people that can get us expeditiously to these decisions, um, make sure they're the right ones. You know, as an organization, you know, like we said, 135 plus companies, you know, collectively, we have a very clear picture of where the enterprise is and where we need to go. So it's just a matter of executing. And I think that's where FCOD comes in. Like I said, to be that bridge, to look strategically, to help communicate with headquarters, to operationalize, you know, what headquarters wants to do and to make sure it's communicated to everyone involved. Because, like I said, change is uncomfortable for a lot of people. So we need to help and work with those that are uncomfortable to get them through this and to show them, you know, when I have this discussion with people, you know, a question that people often ask me is, Well, what are we doing wrong, Mr. Davis? And I say, We're doing nothing wrong. But the mission has evolved and we need to evolve with it. And so the old way of doing things is not going to get us where we need to go in this culture of urgency when time is their most precious commodity. So it's not that we were doing things incorrectly in the past, it's that we need to evolve and, you know, to focus on the mission as it stands today.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

You know, today when you talk about change and evolution and uncomfortable change, as you put it, um, you end up, you, you know, you can't get away from talking about AI. Um, and it's easy to make the joke when you talk about AI and and the nuclear deterrence about things like Skynet and Terminator. I've I've certainly made those jokes with my friends. But it is something um that is going around the world. It is something that DOE is increasingly interested in from an operation standpoint, besides just how AI can benefit the country and the world, but how AI can benefit operations at DOE sites. And it's a strategic area of FCOG. FCOG's uh one of our one of the group's priorities is looking at the use of digital tools to enhance operations. So with that, I wanted to ask you, especially with your background in operations, what do you think will be the role of AI and digital tools in the future of the nuclear security enterprise?

SPEAKER_00 28:17

So that's a really great question, and you know, really very appropriate for the situation we find ourselves in today. So the first thing I talk about when we talk about AI is well, it's not an issue for our enterprise of replacing people. Our people, you know, have too much to do now. So it's trying to find free space to free up space for those people to be more efficient and effective, you know, and to give them some time and that work-life integration. So it's not about eliminating jobs, it's it's about giving people bandwidth to do things that are important. And so I think AI has a huge role to play in that. And one of the things I try and emphasize to my team, and yeah, when we talk at FCOG about this, is oftentimes when we talk to AI, we look to the future. But there are a lot of things that we can use AI for now. And so, one specific example I'll give you is a couple weeks ago, I was sitting here, and so I just did a little test. You know, I typed into AI, I said, look through my email for the past month and tell me what I should be focused on based on that. And 10 seconds later, five things came out, and three of them were at the top of my list. And so I very quickly, by by you know, giving it little hints, got to the right answer. So there's lots of things we could be doing with AI right now to make us more efficient at operations. So, you know, we have the ORPS reporting that all the labs, plants, and sites do. You know, we report significant events up to headquarters. And I think we can make that process a lot more efficient by using AI and saying, hey, as an enterprise, here's the ORPS reports for the last month. What are our biggest concerns? You know, and then, you know, when we have an issue, we have a fact finding, we go get all of these statements, we do all of this research, um, to put all of that in AI and say, what's the root cause of this incident? And so I think it will help us be a lot more objective. Because I, you know, like like every other good leader, you know, I have a gut feel about what my issues are, you know, but that's subjective in a lot of cases, and maybe I have a blind spot. And I think that AI can help us be more objective and get past those blind spots. So I think AI has a lot of uses to make us more efficient and effective today.

Reflections on visiting DOE sites and staying connected to the mission of strategic deterrence

SPEAKER_01 30:55

And so for our listeners, since we are only an audio-only podcast, uh, this podcast is completely human-generated. Uh, no AI avatars were involved in the making of today's recording. Um, but I want to thank you, Mark, for taking the time to talk with us today, especially um your way of describing, you know, the new culture of urgency at Los Alamos and throughout the NNSA complex and how FCOG and its members are helping to drive that uh to meet the needs of today's geopolitical climate. We'd like to end our podcast uh with one question we we ask every participant, which is can you tell us about the first DUE site you ever visited? And what was the the standout memory or takeaway from that experience?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

So I I appreciate the opportunity to to answer that question, Mike. And so um I spent 36 years in the Navy and was on submarines for a majority of that. And so um, you know, on a submarine, it's 150 people. You're you're all very close. I mean, I knew everybody in my crew, I knew their families, you know, I knew a lot about them. And so we all had a very, a very important sense of mission. And so when I looked to get out of the Navy, that was one of the things I was looking to replace. How can I find somewhere that I'm gonna have that sense of mission? So I was fortunate enough in my last job in the Navy to work at DOE headquarters for the uh the Deputy Secretary of Energy. And with her, I traveled all around the country looking at the DOE labs, plants, and sites. And it just, you know, everywhere I went, I was amazed that, you know, the importance of the mission and the attachment that the people had to the mission. And so, like I said, it was it was kind of a very fortunate event for me because you know, I saw that as some place I could go to continue my attachment to a very important mission and to continue to support national security. So I feel very fortunate to be where I am today, you know, and to play such a such an important role in, you know, shaping the way we move forward, you know, with strategic deterrence and with national defense. And so um, you know, I just feel very lucky, and that that's what gets me up every morning, you know, to come in and support the mission and work with an incredible workforce that's very focused on something that's critical and vital to national security and literally cannot fail.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

And I am sure if you were asked what is your role in the national security enterprise, you would know what to say.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Absolutely. It's just support strategic deterrence and make sure that's credible. You know, people often ask, when's the last time we use strategic deterrence? And the answer is every day. And it's only it's only valid if it's credible and if our adversaries see that as a credible threat. And so we need to work every day to to keep that credibility there. And so, you know, at the most basic level, that's my job.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Thank you very much.